Do I wish to be taken seriously? What do you think?
I believe your ossified thnking has stripped you of the ability to get anything other than screaming purple prose.
The point, JB was not that Saddam or Hitler were not evil men. That is fairly easy to figure - even a child can follow such an argument. What is apparently lost on you - in your hypersimplified version - is that the persecution, rape and murder of thousands or millions takes some heavyweight help. There were obviously thousands and thousands of willing participants in the crimes Sadaam is accused of perpetrating. Not Generals and not Sons of Sadaam, but just average garden variety Iraqis. Where are they , JB? In jail? I think not. Your claim that the USG had no complicity in the prosecution of the Iran-Iraq War is disingenuous. You know full well we were active in promoting that war, whether through US firms or those or our Allies, if we had not wanted that war to continue and kill hundreds of thousands of Iranians and Iraqis, we would have made serious efforts to mediate and attentuate it. We did nothing of the sort. Where was our great concern for the fruits of democracy then? It was trumped by our desire to keep both of them off-balance and gain more power to control Iraqi oil.
Looks like Iraq was a gold mine to France and USSR, not Haliburton.(or Boeing ,etc)
Tim, the average Iraqi was in exactly the same space as the average German in WWII. They had a pretty good idea of what was going on, but an even better idea of what would happen to them if they complained (or even commented) about it.
I don't think you've ever lived in an actual police state, though you seem to think that the US is now that.
I learned, in Syria, for example, that my merely calling someone on the phone could lead to that person's spending the next month in police custody, while he "explained" what we were talking about. That experience did not encourage further discourse.
I've also lived where my phone and home were bugged, so nothing I did was "off the record" or private, including the bedroom and bathroom. I did, however, have the protection of a diplomatic passport that kept official hands off me. That passport, however, didn't work well when the guy with the gun was illiterate, or simply didn't understand the concept of diplomatic immunity. My local contacts lived under that threat constantly.
But Iraq went beyond the scope of a police state: it was a terror state, where people were scooped up and killed for no reason other than that they were available. A state that uses rape and murder as a tool of domestic policy is not one where the "average citizen" is going to do anything other than stay out of the way and pray a lot.
While you insist on seeing US policy as driven by a quest for power and oil, there's not really much for us to talk about. That belief is so far out, in my view, that you might as well be talking about the Illuminati stepping off flying saucers at a meeting of the Trilateral Commission. I could certainly be wrong. I don't think so. Clearly you don't think you're wrong either. So we're at an impass where we talk past each other from the basic elements onward.
That strikes me as a total waste of my time, and I assume yours.
Do keep an eye on the developing story of the diversion of "Oil for Food" money and Iraqi oil contracts. Note where the dirty hands are.
You are curiously interested in spending your time posting as long as someone agrees with you.
When there is no agreement, instead of trying to convince what you view as "the opponent", you cut off the conversation.This message has been edited. Last edited by: APO Admin,
Tim, I guess you're right, to a degree. Sometimes there's no point in arguing if there's no longer any rule of argumentation. We seem to be on such completely different wavelengths that I'm no longer sure we're even arguing about the same things.
You raised an argument about the culpability of the Iraqi people in co-existing (I won't use the word "supporting") with Saddam Hussein. I offered a counter argument that explained, I believe, why that culpability might be minimal.
But when you throw in issues like "oil" as a governmental reason for the war in Iraq, I lose the logic of your point. It's then that I also lose interest in carrying on a discussion.
I don't need agreement to continue, I only need to keep the argument within the realm of reason. And yes, of course I have to use my sense of the meaning of the word "reason". It's my time, too, after all.
I guess I might be a bit naive on this subject but reading the postings I have to say that it always stikes me odd that the first arguement against the Iraq war is that we attacked for their oil.
Reading the situation now about the Food for Oil situation it seems that the government, led by Suddam, might have been a bit overzealous on their take. Now if you tried to tell me there aren't some dirty deeds going on in the American government too, I'd discuss that, but the extent of what has occurred to the Iraqi people is above and beyond rediculous.
The government, therefore Suddam, was responsible and had to be removed. If our government allowed similar things to occur in this country, We the People, would take up arms to stop it. Sure Suddam wasn't pulling the triggers or feeding the people himself through the chippers or many of the other things being done but his regime was in power thus allowing it to happen which makes him responsible.
But I'm out of my realm in this discussion. I like to post jokes and the like and all this is not a joking matter.
Roger Redwanski - Class of "68"
"Never argue with the person packing your parachute"
Your right, Roger, leadership takes some responsibility for the conduct of government under their control. Sadaam has his culpability, but then so do the Iraqi people for allowing it. Just like our government. Bu$hco makes the mistakes and we run right up his butt following. So at least half of the 'Merkan people are responsible.
But I differ with JB - I think he has been too close to the sources of his "education" and has lost a reasonable perspective on Middle East Policy. He is infected with MKV (Magic Kingdom Virus). Anyone who really believes that the intervention in Iraq was not primarily to stabilize and control the world's second largest oil reserve is naive to the point of wantonness - or cynically willing to ignore the huge pooping elephant in the living room. I suspect that JB has at least a foot of the finest elephant dung in his collection. He has established himself as nothing more than a shill for his Arab frineds and supporters. And still has the chutzpah to lecture others on "valid" opinion. What a crock! But I disagree. This subject is most certainly a big joke - at least when JB is in the mix.....
Leadership takes MOST responsibility for it's "government employees" conduct. It might not be the TOP of the leadership ladder but the stuff does flow uphill when in the news.
We have the shooting of the prisoner now in Iraq. Did Bush pull the trigger? Heck no. Did he even have anything to do with it at all? Only in sending troops over. Look at the leadership of the troops themselves. The buck may stop at Bush but it may never need to go that far. Somewhere a "leader" had a clue what was happening.
I'm not sure JB deserves the amount of criticism he is receiving here. He is as passionate about his stance on the topic as you are with yours. I respect that with both of you. It's interesting to read the different views but much more pleasurable without derogotory references. Guess its the "Kitchen Groupee" in me. Though I don't expect you to give me the spoonful of sugar at least consider it please.
I have disagreed with the "oil" stance from the beginning. I don't really think oil was the MAJOR reasoning behind it and for this you can consider me naive. Would we have gone in to the degree we did if Iraq had no reserves? We will never know for sure since it does and will continue to. It's a moot point now.
I'm not savvy enough on Saudi Arabia to discuss what has and will occur there regarding all the the world problems. John has his finger more on the pulse and might very well be aware of situations happening that we will never know or find out about after the fact. My father was a Saudi contractor after retirement for a number of years. When he finally questioned the intelligence of the Saudi base commander he was allowed 30 days to be off Saudi soil. They have a different outlook on things. Much as we all do. Otherwise, as is said, we would all be driving the same type and color vehicles.
I guess I need to shore up my living room floor and get the coal shovel out to support the elephant and resulting dung. Is this stuff good for the garden?
As for MKV. Heck, I want a dose of that too. We missed going there this year for the first time in the last ten or so years.
Oops. Here I go. Not being serious again. Darn!!!!
Roger Redwanski - Class of "68"
"Never argue with the person packing your parachute"
Ah Roger - you seem to be the only one with a sense of humor here. Besides me, that is.....
These folks seem to take themselves (and others) way too seriously.....
I wrote a thesis on conscription for Monteith College back in 68. Constitutional, it is not and never has been. It flies in the face of everything our founding fathers believed about the explicit powers of government and most clearly in the face of the 9th Amendment. Just remember that #1, they used to call it "Selective Service" and that #2 the sons and daughters of military officers and politicians were among the least represented in the last "Selection".
I do agree that we are in a "fight for our lives" but see that as the case so often has been, a result of the failures of our leadership, our lopsided foreign policy and an unusual coallignment of Houston interest. Are we to prepared to spill the blood of our children and grandchildren more than to advocate change. Do we think that if we make enough enemies it will one day stop? Then surely, the Bush twins will lead the way!
We had better give some more thought to what it takes to make a professional volunteer force work in the environment of current leadership from both sides of the aisle or begin thinking in earnest about universal, that is absolutely universal military service. Lastly, hang on to your guns! This place is becoming so safe, our grandchildren will probably need them.
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